Curse

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, it's the players that are giving the foes additional e-regen, hex resistance or double casting speed.
Stop that, you guys!

thats +3 regen and double casting speed is only on bosses. as for hex resistance, hmm what? sry guess i missed something :P i am all for it tho, i do want pve to be harder but i dont think we need to chage any thing for mesmer to be used in pve, only our tactics we use

Kattar · Mar 18, 2008, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

In the Prophecies and Nightfall Campaign, Conditions and Hexes last for a reduced span of time on a boss (see Natural resistance).

Think this applies to boss-like foes as well.

JDRyder · Mar 18, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katsumi

Think this applies to boss-like foes as well.

i dont think this hurts mesmers that much, or at least there has to be a better reason why ppl think mesmers are useless for pve.

upier · Mar 18, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

thats +3 regen and double casting speed is only on bosses. as for hex resistance, hmm what? sry guess i missed something :P i am all for it tho, i do want pve to be harder but i dont think we need to chage any thing for mesmer to be used in pve, only our tactics we use

I thought that faster casting speed and faster attack rate is what hard mode is all about?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

i dont think this hurts mesmers that much, or at least there has to be a better reason why ppl think mesmers are useless for pve.

So we finally ran across a foe in PvE that is worth the mesmers time because it won't just spontaneously combust when we aggro it - and then some heavy hitting skills such as Diversion or Shame only last half their duration and that doesn't hurt the mesmer how ...?
I sure as hell don't see how it's helping.

JDRyder · Mar 19, 2008, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So we finally ran across a foe in PvE that is worth the mesmers time because it won't just spontaneously combust when we aggro it - and then some heavy hitting skills such as Diversion or Shame only last half their duration and that doesn't hurt the mesmer how ...?
I sure as hell don't see how it's helping.

because it applys to every 1, this is what i mean by its not hurting mesmer. most the time the target will have used a skill before the hex goes away.

draxynnic · Mar 19, 2008, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

"It's been a while since I've played a Mesmer properly, but the last time I did, I needed energy management. 'Course, that was when Clumsiness and Wandering Eye had shorter recharges."

Power Drain is the only "energy managment" skill i use, if you want to to call it that. if you add Drain Enchantment in, you dont really need any more then that, as long as your doing you job, you have energy. using the 2 "or just 1" will not take up a slot just for energy manament. the only mesmer build i can think of where you may need GoLE is a panic build

Depends on what you're doing. If you have things to interrupt, sure - I've had builds that could rely on that form of energy management to keep going. But Power Drain relies on having things to interrupt - if you're fighting an opponent that doesn't have spells with medium-long casting times, it's not quite so efficient.

Regarding Drain Enchantment: In a lot of areas, I prefer Mirror of Disenchantment for enchantment removal. Knocks the enchantment off the whole mob rather than just one. And if you're relying on it for energy management... sucks to be you if the enemy isn't considerate enough to enchant themselves

Quote:

"On bhavv's point about the AI not selectively using GOLE for 10e skills: The build in question only has one of them (Confusing Images). Even if Gwen does get things confused (pun not intended) occasionally, she probably still comes out ahead in the long run with GOLE."

i still think Etap will do a better job cause of the IA, ive tryed GoLE on a lot of heros but i dont think that use it right. Its hard for gwen not to use it right but, the IA seems to not always use it. ive seen my heros needing energy and other then using GoLE they just keep casting. with Etap they will spaming it cause its what the IA wants them to do. on a player GoLE maybe better but IA cant use it right yet

I haven't had that problem myself, but if they're sitting and trying to throw spells when they've run out of energy, you can always force them to use the Glyph.

Quote:

"Looking at the build, and bhavv's comments regarding being able to dish out more armour-ignoring damage than an Ele can dish out after armour, it appears that bhavv's character is basically looking to perform armour-ignoring nuking with a couple of interrupts thrown in so she can stop anything nasty that she sees being cast."

yea mesmers can, most a mesmers damage bypasses armor. the only skill a ele can use "that i can think of atm" is Obsidian Flame, but eles are still the kings/queens of AoE. mesmers were not made to do aoe damage "even tho they can" things like hex eater vortex/shatter hex are still nice "a fast 86-114 damage to all near is always good" if used in the right area can be very powerful. Let me point this out, a mesmers aoe is just as "if not less" conditional as the triple chop builds that every 1 likes so much. if your blinded or have melee hexes on you, then you cant do any aoe "or you will kill yourself if you have SV or SS" at least with the mesmer for the Aoe to work they have to be casting/doing something, if they are not thats a good thing. I do not think a AoE mesmer is the right way to go, not saying it cant be done or dont do it, but eles do better AoE and a eles aoe next to any thing the non eles AoE will be/seem more conditional

Blind and melee hexes are easy enough to deal with in relatively small numbers with hex removal. It's harder to force a mob of Warriors, Rangers, Dervishes, Paragons and Monks to throw an offensive spell so Mistrust can go off.

Of course, there is a certain amount of building for the area here - if an area has sufficient warrior-hate that hex and condition control can't keep up (Shards of Orr, for instance) than the builds can be modified to cope, and likewise with Bhavv's build. However, I suspect the number of times when the nature of a mob means that some or all of Bhavv's skillbar is fallow will be less than the number of times a warrior gets knocked out by hexes or conditions.

bhavv · Mar 19, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21

All hexes expire on bosses twice as quick in both NM and HM, it isnt any different in HM.

That means Wastrels Worry ftw vs bosses

My bar was kind of a hybrid to be able to deal with both attackers and casters. Just use Empathy vs attackers, Mistrust on a caster. AI ellys and mesmers definately always trigger mistrust. They cant seem to ever stop attacking

I tried HM without Gwen to level my other heroes and farm some SS points to progress, and I cant interupt a single damn thing

I either need Gwen to interupt in HM, or for now I have taken off my interupts and gone Empathy / backfire / mistrust / E surge / E burn / Cry of pain / drain enchant.

Empathy and Backfire are double effective in HM as enemies attack and cast 50% faster.

Now I had a boss slaying heroway ages ago which is most effective against Shiro and takes him down pretty fast, but the mesmer bar is more geared towards taking out caster bosses. It consists of two necros, a usual SS / Insidious Parasite build, a SV one, and a Me/N with the following bar:

[skill]Overload[/skill][skill]empathy[/skill][skill]backfire[/skill][skill]wastrel's worry[/skill][skill]wastrel's demise[/skill][skill]grenth's balance[/skill][skill]waste not want not[/skill]

I got the Idea when reading wiki notes and seeing that SS, SV + Grenths balance are very effctive vs high HP bosses, so I loaded up on all three and it was seriously good stuff. But its only really effective on Shiro or if your just farming bosses. Dont take it into normal PVE ^^

Ive not tried it on Dungeon bosses actually, but I think getting to the dungeon boss with that bar will be harder then it is worth. If farming any caster bosses, its good to take.

Oh btw, dont use backfire overload and wastrels demise on shiro or non caster bosses, I just cant remember exactly what I did on top SS + SV + Grenths Balance.

JDRyder · Mar 19, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Depends on what you're doing. If you have things to interrupt, sure - I've had builds that could rely on that form of energy management to keep going. But Power Drain relies on having things to interrupt - if you're fighting an opponent that doesn't have spells with medium-long casting times, it's not quite so efficient.

Regarding Drain Enchantment: In a lot of areas, I prefer Mirror of Disenchantment for enchantment removal. Knocks the enchantment off the whole mob rather than just one. And if you're relying on it for energy management... sucks to be you if the enemy isn't considerate enough to enchant themselves

i dont find a lot of times wheres i dont have something to interupt, but as i said GoLE ok on people but heros never use it right.

and yes Mirror of Disenchantment owns face in a lot of areas but i still like shatter or drain better most the time. some times even both mirror and shatter/drain is good

Terraban · Mar 19, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

because it applys to every 1, this is what i mean by its not hurting mesmer. most the time the target will have used a skill before the hex goes away.

Except that most other hexes, Necromancer hexes, last a long time, usually longer than their recharge.

And how does this not hurt a Mesmer when you compare them to say, a Paragon?

Edit:
I don't see how Mirror of Disenchantment is worth a damn in PvE. Very rarely do entire mobs have the same enchantment on them, and most of the time if they do, it is something like Fire Attunement which is useless to remove.

I know that if I didn't add this, everyone would try to prove me wrong by saying Aegis. But how often do monsters actually have Aegis?

JDRyder · Mar 19, 2008, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Except that most other hexes, Necromancer hexes, last a long time, usually longer than their recharge.

most mesmers hexes have the same recharge necros hexes "if not its by less the 5 secs most the time" and last about the same time "with in 2-3 secs" mesmer hexes do better with the reduced hex thing as well. most mesmer hexes go off after the foe uses a skill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

I don't see how Mirror of Disenchantment is worth a damn in PvE. Very rarely do entire mobs have the same enchantment on them, and most of the time if they do, it is something like Fire Attunement which is useless to remove.

this is why we said in some areas. Tainted Flesh,Death Nova,Conjure Flame"its used by the char a lot, and can save your teams monsk from healing something like 300+damage"Holy Wrath,Retribution. The list can go on but i think you get the point :P

upier · Mar 19, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Except that most other hexes, Necromancer hexes, last a long time, usually longer than their recharge.

And how does this not hurt a Mesmer when you compare them to say, a Paragon?

Exactly.
It hurts anyone that wants to use hexes.
And because we aren't running a charity - one can leave at home the classes that have issues.
My party only has 8 slots.

draxynnic · Apr 04, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Welllll... I took a modified version of bhavv's build out into Maishing Hills...

Dropped Inspiration completely in favour of a GOLE and Guilt, allowing more points to be put in Domination and Fast Casting (and not needing to carry an Inspiration rune) - I figured if Guilt wasn't going to be set off I wouldn't be casting Mistrust either and could afford the reduced e-management. Brought with me Norgu in the Illusion role (albeit with Energy Tap and Drain swapped out for other e-management, although I wasn't watching him closely enough to see how his e-management was working out), Zhed (which I realised on the way was equipped with a kiting Water build likely made for Moddok rather than the Earth build I thought he had, making the test more stringent than I intended), Olias on MM duty, the two monk henchmen, Aeson, and Seaguard Eli.

Verdict: It worked pretty well. Rot Wallow mobs had a tendency to disintegrate, and it also proved reasonably effective on Oni spawns (which do tend to throw a lot of hexes around that can be Mistrusted, and Arcane Conundrumned Shadow Refuge is easy enough to hit with Cry of Frustration). Naga groups were a little less victimised due to the lack of offensive casters (unless they had a Kappa along...), but interrupting spirit-dropping and/or Troll Ungeunt with Cry of Frustration allowed most of the skillbar to be brought to bear.

One weakness that showed up with Kurzick popups is that the build wasn't particularly effective at helping to pull down monks. However, this could be bypassed by victimising targets apart from the monks and simply dealing enough damage that the monk can't cope. Not sure how well this would work in hardmode, though.

Now, for the comparisons...

One of the issues that I've seen for a while with primary Mesmers is that Mesmer skills, on the whole, aren't very sensitive to having a high rank in the attribute, leading to the conclusion that running an Elementalist or Necromancer primary with Energy Storage or Soul Reaping might often do a better job. In this case, however, I don't think the extra energy from those sources is actually so much of a biggie - I found that it was fairly uncommon to run low on energy, even when I forgot to use the energy management I had. (This was wearing a one-point-short-of-full Radiant set with two attunements, however, so your mileage may vary.) Ergo, its plausible, even likely, that the effect of runes and Fast Casting may in fact be more beneficial to the build than use of an energy-granting primary.

The second is: How well does it compare to an Elementalist as a nuker? In this case, I'd have to say "It depends". Against the right targets, it did feel like it was creating a comparable level of mayhem to a Searing Flames elementalist (note, this is a highly subjective impression), with interruptions and so on as added benefits. However, against the wrong targets, its efficiency does drop significantly, and a Mesmer acting as a nuker in this fashion may be forced to split their efforts between the targets that people actually want to be hit (with the fairly target-independant effects like Energy Surge and Cry of Pain) and switching to other targets against whom Mistrust might work in order to at least do some damage.

One thing that might be worth considering with this build, if you don't mind weakening or removing the effect of SS, is to slip in a curses Necro running Weakness or Shadow of Fear to assist in dealing with non-casters - as well as generally reducing the enemy's damage output, it would make attack skills easier to hit with Cry of Frustration.

It's still turning the Mesmer into something it's not supposed to be... but it maintains enough of the feel when what the Mesmer is supposed to be is largely better achieved by Rangers and Elementalists in PvE.